The only danger arises when a specific game is somehow negatively associated with the Forge.

Which ultimately is what I felt Matt was driving at after laying the historical foundation (not to put words in Matt’s mouth, that’s just what I got out of it).

Are there games out there still being classified as “Forge games” (in addition to/exclusively from story/indie games)? If so, then this still remains an issue of interest in how it can affect perception of the game (whether that affects gamer population penetration or marketing/sales efforts). If that classification is already dying (and in my experience, it isn’t a term I have seen applied to a game in a while now), then this is mostly academic.

In this context, the specific misconceptions about the Forge are almost less important than the whole problem of using a website as a shortcut for your gamer street cred. Our games are always in danger of being associated with some negative meme, Forge or otherwise. But if the ultimate goal is to expand market share, we have to move beyond the audience who knows (or much less cares) about gamer politics. Attempting to take on these misconceptions directly is counterproductive and a waste of time (from a marketing point of view).

On the other hand, there is no need to latch onto the Forge as a marketing plus. Indie games are much more generally accepted. They can surely stand on their own. What I mean is, if someone wants to off-handedly and negatively label a certain game as a “Forge game,” we as designers can’t do much about it. It’s more important to put our efforts into clearly explaining what our game does and why it does it well. The Forge doesn’t need defending. So let’s not try to change people’s minds as a marketing move. Instead, let’s focus on showing people why our specific games are good games — period.

And this is where I have a difficult time understanding your concern. Why should the Forge’s perception problems affect our efforts to market games unless identity politics are involved? If the Forge has a barrier to entry, that’s a Forge problem, not a game designer’s marketing problem. The only danger arises when a specific game is somehow negatively associated with the Forge.

Personally what I gained from the Forge, even if it was by 2nd or 3rd generation distillation, was the idea of making games that address different aspects of play. I’m not too keen on the vocab, mainly because I’m not very sure to this day on the meanings, but I cannot deny where the ideas that led me to know, learn, play and now be influenced/inspired by games that put a focus on the narrative came from.

Of course, over the last couple of years I have also grown and discarded that chip on my shoulder about the us trads vs them indie hippies, so that alone helped me tons.

For many, there is no problem. Even if those people agree that there is a perception issue, it’s too low priority for them to do anything about it. I suspect that Paul Czege sees it roughly this way, for example.

If you are interested, as I am, in broadening the reach of your published game sales, then perception among other gamers that your game is a “Forge” game (and all the connotations that carries) could be a problem.

I think it simply depends on what your priorities and philosophies about creating and playing indie games is all about. Those priorities and philosophies are not uniform, of course. And, they shift even within an individual, as mine have over the years.

It would be a couple of years before I went back and was able to understand how things operated there (ie. not like a regular forum, but rather under a very specific set of rules) and was able to start making sense of it all. I still don’t post (except on some of the specific publisher forums), and even now that I am working on a game that is in tune with the philosophies that emerged from the Forge I don’t know I would, to be perfectly honest, mainly because I still sense a bit of that barrier. And that might (and probably) is mostly me and how I haven’t found a way to socket into that site, but obviously there is something present because you are addressing it and you and I have never spoken about this.

I now recognize the value of what is stored at the Forge. I’ll find it interesting to see how Vincent replies to this whole issue whenever he gets around to it, or even if this is something that even needs addressing at all. If Ron is perfectly fine with the Forge having this mystic aura that acts as a semipermeable membrane for people coming into the Forge, then is there really a problem there?